what specifically prevents the starter battery from going flat when camping off-grid

M

myvanrodney

Lifetime VIP Member
Messages
539
Location
UK
Vehicle
T6.1 Ocean 204
Hi All,

Im trying to find a definitive answer to this particular and very specific question:

what specifically prevents normal repeated use of the cab doors, soft-close sliding door and soft-close tailgate while camping from taking the starter battery below starting capacity?

Considering every time the drivers door is opened all the base transporter electronics are woken up (the dash come on everytime), and that the soft close side door and boot are powered from the starter battery, Id like to know what guardrails VW have in place to ensure we can drive away after a static off-grid camping holiday.

I know, "just run the engine" every few days, but would love to know what safety measures are built in (I dont need to the dash and infotainment to power up everytime I open a front door).

Thanks.
 
None.

If you are worried i'd get solar with a dual output to leisure and starter.
 
Hi All,

Im trying to find a definitive answer to this particular and very specific question:

what specifically prevents normal repeated use of the cab doors, soft-close sliding door and soft-close tailgate while camping from taking the starter battery below starting capacity?

Considering every time the drivers door is opened all the base transporter electronics are woken up (the dash come on everytime), and that the soft close side door and boot are powered from the starter battery, Id like to know what guardrails VW have in place to ensure we can drive away after a static off-grid camping holiday.

I know, "just run the engine" every few days, but would love to know what safety measures are built in (I dont need to the dash and infotainment to power up everytime I open a front door).

Thanks.
There are no “ safeguards “.
Remember , the base vehicle is a commercial van, designed to cover 20,000 miles/ year between services.
It was NOT designed from the ground up as a Campervan/leisure vehicle.
On EHU it does charge the leisure batteries and since the T5.1, it has been shown that the engine battery will be trickle charged.
 
Hi All,

Im trying to find a definitive answer to this particular and very specific question:

what specifically prevents normal repeated use of the cab doors, soft-close sliding door and soft-close tailgate while camping from taking the starter battery below starting capacity?

Considering every time the drivers door is opened all the base transporter electronics are woken up (the dash come on everytime), and that the soft close side door and boot are powered from the starter battery, Id like to know what guardrails VW have in place to ensure we can drive away after a static off-grid camping holiday.

I know, "just run the engine" every few days, but would love to know what safety measures are built in (I dont need to the dash and infotainment to power up everytime I open a front door).

Thanks.
I think this an interesting question, and wonder for example what impact - if any - choosing 'Camping' mode has on equipment that is powered by the starter battery?
 
I think this an interesting question, and wonder for example what impact - if any - choosing 'Camping' mode has on equipment that is powered by the starter battery?
From what I understand, the only impact camping mode has is to disable the interior lights being triggered when a door is opened. Rather it responds to the dedicated buttons on the lights only, in the camping area. All the cab lights are disabled.

I also believe there is a complex algorithm that slowly shuts down vehicle electrical systems once the doors are closed and the ignition off. Believe it or not, the van records explicit conditions in its memory that may cause a flat battery such as lights left on or hazards or infotainment system left on... I beleive this is to help with warranty claim determination.

There is also a low battery condition detected from the starter battery canbus module which then takes 'protective action' and alerts on the dash as low 12v and for the engine to be started.

The charge relay (couples leisure to starter battery) closes when EHU is connected and closes to charge the starter battery. I also beleive it closes with the ignition on (but not cranking) in 'certain' conditions. But i don't know what these 'conditions' or 'protective actions' are.

This is what i'm trying to find out.

I've had flat battery problems (long story), and VW refuse to tell me - they try to palm me off with some Ai puff stating 'it depends'!
 
From what I understand, the only impact camping mode has is to disable the interior lights being triggered when a door is opened. Rather it responds to the dedicated buttons on the lights only, in the camping area. All the cab lights are disabled.

I also believe there is a complex algorithm that slowly shuts down vehicle electrical systems once the doors are closed and the ignition off. Believe it or not, the van records explicit conditions in its memory that may cause a flat battery such as lights left on or hazards or infotainment system left on... I beleive this is to help with warranty claim determination.

There is also a low battery condition detected from the starter battery canbus module which then takes 'protective action' and alerts on the dash as low 12v and for the engine to be started.

The charge relay (couples leisure to starter battery) closes when EHU is connected and closes to charge the starter battery. I also beleive it closes with the ignition on (but not cranking) in 'certain' conditions. But i don't know what these 'conditions' or 'protective actions' are.

This is what i'm trying to find out.

I've had flat battery problems (long story), and VW refuse to tell me - they try to palm me off with some Ai puff stating 'it depends'!
I think it might be helpful to consider the base van and ignore the camping / California bit to start with.

I don’t know the exact workings of the Multivan, but I can outline what tends to happen.

The Battery Monitoring system will be reading the SOC of the battery and likely have multiple trigger points at various SOCs and they will progressively either switch off or reduce loads. Reduced timers, disabling infotainment without ign on etc, prompt warning messages and tell driver to start engine {this is normally well before they need to but the SOC is going the wrong way} (camping mode probably just mimics some of this) - this can reduce the load on the battery but you get to stage were stuff just can’t be switched off either because the car won’t function and/or doesn’t comply with regulations.

However a lot depends on what is causing the flat battery, all of above assumes the car is functioning correctly. A significant amount of effort goes into reducing the 12v consumption esp in the off state. However it only takes one rogue ECU or issue to keep the whole car awake and significantly impact the vehicle stand time.

I have seen simple software lockups, water ingress, aftermarket accessories (inc 3rd party trailer modules, trackers, LED bulbs), also external radio transmitters/masts, create drain issues by keeping the car awake.

Modern cars can take 5+ Amps if the Networks are held on. A lot of car companies will have the Hazard Light illumination as the last thing to go out when the vehicle moves from awake to sleep.

So I think it depends if you think your car is draining because of constant use and not enough protection or actually it is not going to sleep and the drain is excessive, if the hazard switch never goes out then I would suggest the car is awake.

The traditional way to determine the level of drain is to place a multimeter in circuit between the battery terminal and cable, most meters will have a 10A fuse in them, so this is just to test for drain with ign off. However if it is a software lockup, often disconnecting the battery resets the issue anyway. If you do see a high load 0.5A+ after 15 mins, then start pulling fuses to locate the issue.
 
I think it might be helpful to consider the base van and ignore the camping / California bit to start with.

I don’t know the exact workings of the Multivan, but I can outline what tends to happen.

The Battery Monitoring system will be reading the SOC of the battery and likely have multiple trigger points at various SOCs and they will progressively either switch off or reduce loads. Reduced timers, disabling infotainment without ign on etc, prompt warning messages and tell driver to start engine {this is normally well before they need to but the SOC is going the wrong way} (camping mode probably just mimics some of this) - this can reduce the load on the battery but you get to stage were stuff just can’t be switched off either because the car won’t function and/or doesn’t comply with regulations.

However a lot depends on what is causing the flat battery, all of above assumes the car is functioning correctly. A significant amount of effort goes into reducing the 12v consumption esp in the off state. However it only takes one rogue ECU or issue to keep the whole car awake and significantly impact the vehicle stand time.

I have seen simple software lockups, water ingress, aftermarket accessories (inc 3rd party trailer modules, trackers, LED bulbs), also external radio transmitters/masts, create drain issues by keeping the car awake.

Modern cars can take 5+ Amps if the Networks are held on. A lot of car companies will have the Hazard Light illumination as the last thing to go out when the vehicle moves from awake to sleep.

So I think it depends if you think your car is draining because of constant use and not enough protection or actually it is not going to sleep and the drain is excessive, if the hazard switch never goes out then I would suggest the car is awake.

The traditional way to determine the level of drain is to place a multimeter in circuit between the battery terminal and cable, most meters will have a 10A fuse in them, so this is just to test for drain with ign off. However if it is a software lockup, often disconnecting the battery resets the issue anyway. If you do see a high load 0.5A+ after 15 mins, then start pulling fuses to locate the issue.
Thanks for this... great explanation. Yeah apparently i had a faulty j608 drawing 0.2a parasitically. I also saw close to 10a flowing on initial ignition on (no start), .. that's huge.

I've had a faulty battery as a result, so two simultaneous electrical faults made diagnosing hell. That, and the charge relay coupling the 2 in parallel leisure batteries supporting the starter at some (can't work out the logic) points, threw the diagnostic process even further into the long grass.

I wish the manufacturers would just show a little more transparency. Bring back the days of 'Complete Enlightenment' from simply buying a Haynes manual !
 
Thanks for this... great explanation. Yeah apparently i had a faulty j608 drawing 0.2a parasitically. I also saw close to 10a flowing on initial ignition on (no start), .. that's huge.

I've had a faulty battery as a result, so two simultaneous electrical faults made diagnosing hell. That, and the charge relay coupling the 2 in parallel leisure batteries supporting the starter at some (can't work out the logic) points, threw the diagnostic process even further into the long grass.

I wish the manufacturers would just show a little more transparency. Bring back the days of 'Complete Enlightenment' from simply buying a Haynes manual !
10A on Ign is not uncommon on a modern vehicle with all the ECUs and sensors, in fact I would say it is good number. So many of these systems have to be up and running the second the vehicle is operating a lot of stuff switches on door open or approaching the vehicle.
 
Thanks for this... great explanation. Yeah apparently i had a faulty j608 drawing 0.2a parasitically. I also saw close to 10a flowing on initial ignition on (no start), .. that's huge.

I've had a faulty battery as a result, so two simultaneous electrical faults made diagnosing hell. That, and the charge relay coupling the 2 in parallel leisure batteries supporting the starter at some (can't work out the logic) points, threw the diagnostic process even further into the long grass.

I wish the manufacturers would just show a little more transparency. Bring back the days of 'Complete Enlightenment' from simply buying a Haynes manual !
First thing to do when diagnosis is taking place is hook up a battery maintainer. Basic.
 
Just carry a jump pack! They only take a tiny amount of space.
 
First thing to do when diagnosis is taking place is hook up a battery maintainer. Basic.
Disagree, connecting one of these means the battery monitoring system isn’t behaving normally and makes the diagnosis vague at best. Absolutely charge the battery beforehand and I also agree with battery pack.
 
lol... we are well past a halfords battery charger/maintainer
 
B]what specifically prevents normal repeated use of the cab doors, soft-close sliding door and soft-close tailgate while camping from taking the starter battery below starting capacity?[/B]

Nothing.

If you read some older posts it happens all the time. I’ve done it myself twice. First time I was able to trickle charge the starter enough using the hook up cable. Second time it was so far gone I had to call the AA who couldn’t resurrect it with a jump start and resort to the max charge cable on his van. No amount of tiny jump packs would have got that one going.

I saw camping mode mentioned. That is a behaviour mode for lights. That’s all. Any saving will be not having your headlights come on.

The lessons I have learnt is don’t open the drivers door at all when parked. That takes the max draw on starter, even on EHU.
 
I think that ALL the cigarette lighter (12v) sockets on the T6.1 Californias are on the leisure batteries (although earlier Californias had just the dash 12v socket on the starter battery), in which case this would not work to charge a T6.1 starter battery from the leisure ones. But please correct me if I have that wrong.
 
Last edited:
I think that ALL the cigarette lighter (12v) sockets on the T6.1 Californias are on the leisure batteries, although earlier Californias had just the dash 12v socket on the starter battery. In which case this would not work. But please correct me if I have that wrong.
Yes, T6.1 ALL 12v sockets are powered by the leisure batts
 
Yes, T6.1 ALL 12v sockets are powered by the leisure batts
Yes, mine’s a T6, however I have never had an issue starting after 3/4 days of normal use although I rarely use the front doors when camping due to screen cover.
 
I think that ALL the cigarette lighter (12v) sockets on the T6.1 Californias are on the leisure batteries (although earlier Californias had just the dash 12v socket on the starter battery), in which case this would not work to charge a T6.1 starter battery from the leisure ones. But please correct me if I have that wrong.

Yup. This is correct. It was confusing me for a while when I bought a readout plug and going off some of the original “Cali Chris” videos on the “everything in front of the headrest apart from the inverter is starter” edict. All lighter plugs on my 22 6.1 are leisure.

I believe earlier 6.1s still had this split.
 
I don't know if I'm understanding the thread, so apologies if I'm missing the point. I don't see the radio (infotainment) being mentioned, and we use it a lot while camping. When we had the T4 California Coach, at some point I was told the radio gets the power from the starter battery. We got the wiring changed, so it was fed from the secondary battery. When we got the Ocean, I asked our mechanic and said it was also fed from the main battery. They changed it, so it is fed from the leisure batteries. The only downside is that the radio switches itself off after 20 mins, but that's ok, and if you want to continue listening to it, you only need to press the on botton.
 
I don't know if I'm understanding the thread, so apologies if I'm missing the point. I don't see the radio (infotainment) being mentioned, and we use it a lot while camping. When we had the T4 California Coach, at some point I was told the radio gets the power from the starter battery. We got the wiring changed, so it was fed from the secondary battery. When we got the Ocean, I asked our mechanic and said it was also fed from the main battery. They changed it, so it is fed from the leisure batteries. The only downside is that the radio switches itself off after 20 mins, but that's ok, and if you want to continue listening to it, you only need to press the on botton.
Thanks for this. Yes I believe that is the case with ours. We do listen to it and use power button to wake it again. I think I might do a test and see how much it draws so i can set us a budget.
 
I always turn off the cab lights at the overhead light switch in the middle panel and dont use the radio as that definitely draws a fair amount of power from the van starter battery (as we found out on our very first camping trip!!)
 
I think it might be helpful to consider the base van and ignore the camping / California bit to start with.

I don’t know the exact workings of the Multivan, but I can outline what tends to happen.

The Battery Monitoring system will be reading the SOC of the battery and likely have multiple trigger points at various SOCs and they will progressively either switch off or reduce loads. Reduced timers, disabling infotainment without ign on etc, prompt warning messages and tell driver to start engine {this is normally well before they need to but the SOC is going the wrong way} (camping mode probably just mimics some of this) - this can reduce the load on the battery but you get to stage were stuff just can’t be switched off either because the car won’t function and/or doesn’t comply with regulations.

However a lot depends on what is causing the flat battery, all of above assumes the car is functioning correctly. A significant amount of effort goes into reducing the 12v consumption esp in the off state. However it only takes one rogue ECU or issue to keep the whole car awake and significantly impact the vehicle stand time.

I have seen simple software lockups, water ingress, aftermarket accessories (inc 3rd party trailer modules, trackers, LED bulbs), also external radio transmitters/masts, create drain issues by keeping the car awake.

Modern cars can take 5+ Amps if the Networks are held on. A lot of car companies will have the Hazard Light illumination as the last thing to go out when the vehicle moves from awake to sleep.

So I think it depends if you think your car is draining because of constant use and not enough protection or actually it is not going to sleep and the drain is excessive, if the hazard switch never goes out then I would suggest the car is awake.

The traditional way to determine the level of drain is to place a multimeter in circuit between the battery terminal and cable, most meters will have a 10A fuse in them, so this is just to test for drain with ign off. However if it is a software lockup, often disconnecting the battery resets the issue anyway. If you do see a high load 0.5A+ after 15 mins, then start pulling fuses to locate the issue.
IMG_1281.pngFirst time in Morocco. Just a van; no complications except the driver being stoned!
 
View attachment 152177First time in Morocco. Just a van; no complications except the driver being stoned!
Thanks for this. Very helpful. The AA mechanic and I have put it down to a faulty battery (physical internal fault, perhaps electrical connections between plates or something), showing healthy voltages, but then collapsing when asked to supply high currents (starter). Fingers crossed the problem is now solved and I can leave the Van to protect the battery and let me know when I might need to run the engine a little.
 

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