T6.1 2023 Beach Lithium upgrade

[MrB999]

Does anyone have a recent experience of switching out AGM battery on the VW California Beach T6.1.

Any company recommendations where this has been achieved successfully.

I know it means switching out the split charge for DC-DC, changing the shore charger.

The loss of battery level on the camping screen I am sure I can live with as most Lithium batteries come with Bluetooth monitoring. Equally the 'max charge' won't be needed.

Otherwise I believe the system will just receive it's power from Lithium and work the lighting systems as normal. No Fridge etc to worry about, apart form what I add separately.

Thank you. Live in Surrey.

 

[wildslammer22]

I’ve done it on an Ocean which is a bit more involved with two batteries vs one. I can confirm that you don’t actually need to change out the shore charger. The AGM profile is similar enough to LIFEPO4 that it will work pretty well. A DC-DC charger is a must though especially with a smart alternator. There are UK based manufacturers that can supply a 100/105ah LIFEPO4 battery with a near identical dimensions to the existing AGM battery so it should be as simple as replacing the split charge relay with a DC-DC charger which is straightforward enough for any campervan/motorhome specialist. The Magic Motorhome Man in Hampshire is highly regarded if you fancy a trip over the border!

 

[MrB999]

Did you need to upgrade the alternator to dc-dc wiring. I presume you do. Thank you for advice.
Did your camping overhead display work as expected.

 

[wildslammer22]

Did you need to upgrade the alternator to dc-dc wiring. I presume you do. Thank you for advice.
Did your camping overhead display work as expected.

The DC/DC connects directly to the starter battery rather than the alternator and yes you need to use the correct gauge cabling. I have a T6 so I can’t comment on the T6.1 display. The advantage with a Beach which has a single battery rather than 2 is you can fit a smart shunt which will give you SOC data if the display is no longer giving accurate info.

 

[arklife]

Afternoon.

I have recently replaced the 2 No. AGM batteries on my T6.1 Ocean with Titan lithium batteries without any other changes, i.e.: it was a straight swap (AGM out, lithium in) with no changes to any other hardware. I kept the original VW split charger and mains/EHU charger and did not install a DC-DC charger. Titan did the install for me but having seen it done, if you are confident with 12v electrics, a DIY install would be straightforward. The BMS on the Titan batteries has been designed so that they can be dropped in in place of AGM batteries with no other changes. I had this done in mid June and have been in the van for a total of 4 weeks since then, without using EHU for all but one of those nights (I do also have 300W of solar on the roof). The Max Charge function works a treat. I can’t fault the new batteries.

The CCU screen does not display the correct “Time Remaining” (not that it ever really did) but does display the correct voltage and current and, as you have said, the Titan batteries link with an app which does display the correct information (and a lot more than is shown on the CCU screen besides).

I’d love to say that I found these batteries and Titan myself but I was put onto them by another member here, who had done an identical install, through one of his posts. He was very knowledgeable and generous with his time answering my questions and Chris at Titan was also very helpful providing information before I decided to take the plunge. I had been looking at various systems and batteries (CarElectric.de/Super B Epsilon, Califaktur/Saftkiste, bespoke installs, etc.) and the Titan solution, to me, was the best: Titan are UK based, the batteries are (marginally) smaller than the factory fitted AGM batteries (in the Ocean in any case, not sure about the Beach), the battery casing is compatible with the battery fixing/hold down clips already installed, it’s a drop-in installation, the capacity is massive and they are the cheapest (in the round).

I am planning to write up the solution I went with/my experience in a separate post but that is on the long finger until the weather forces me out of the van!

 

[wildslammer22]

Afternoon.

I have recently replaced the 2 No. AGM batteries on my T6.1 Ocean with Titan lithium batteries without any other changes, i.e.: it was a straight swap (AGM out, lithium in) with no changes to any other hardware. I kept the original VW split charger and mains/EHU charger and did not install a DC-DC charger. Titan did the install for me but having seen it done, if you are confident with 12v electrics, a DIY install would be straightforward. The BMS on the Titan batteries has been designed so that they can be dropped in in place of AGM batteries with no other changes. I had this done in mid June and have been in the van for a total of 4 weeks since then, without using EHU for all but one of those nights (I do also have 300W of solar on the roof). The Max Charge function works a treat. I can’t fault the new batteries.

The CCU screen does not display the correct “Time Remaining” (not that it ever really did) but does display the correct voltage and current and, as you have said, the Titan batteries link with an app which does display the correct information (and a lot more than is shown on the CCU screen besides).

I’d love to say that I found these batteries and Titan myself but I was put onto them by another member here, who had done an identical install, through one of his posts. He was very knowledgeable and generous with his time answering my questions and Chris at Titan was also very helpful providing information before I decided to take the plunge. I had been looking at various systems and batteries (CarElectric.de/Super B Epsilon, Califaktur/Saftkiste, bespoke installs, etc.) and the Titan solution, to me, was the best: Titan are UK based, the batteries are (marginally) smaller than the factory fitted AGM batteries (in the Ocean in any case, not sure about the Beach), the battery casing is compatible with the battery fixing/hold down clips already installed, it’s a drop-in installation, the capacity is massive and they are the cheapest (in the round).

I am planning to write up the solution I went with/my experience in a separate post but that is on the long finger until the weather forces me out of the van!

Sounds like a great option, wish I’d known about before I did mine! At the time I couldn’t find LIFEPO4 batteries that were identical (or smaller) than the factory AGM's, it wasn’t an issue for the one under the seat but a real pain for the one in the rear!

I assume you can’t charge the batteries to 100% from the split charge which I guess isn’t an issue in summer with 300w of solar but might be an inconvenience in winter?

 

[WelshGas]

Sounds like a great option, wish I’d known about before I did mine! At the time I couldn’t find LIFEPO4 batteries that were identical (or smaller) than the factory AGM's, it wasn’t an issue for the one under the seat but a real pain for the one in the rear!

I assume you can’t charge the batteries to 100% from the split charge which I guess isn’t an issue in summer with 300w of solar but might be an inconvenience in winter?

You can use the Max Charge switch on the T6.1 or switch on headlights or heated seats, all of which switch off the Smart Alternator 80% limit and goes to 100%, charging all batteries to 100%.

 

[arklife]

Yes, that's right: the batteries can be charged to 100% with the Max Charge function. I have two (nominal) 120Ah batteries and, when 100% charged, have 251Ah available.

 

[Kemper-van]

Afternoon.

I have recently replaced the 2 No. AGM batteries on my T6.1 Ocean with Titan lithium batteries without any other changes, i.e.: it was a straight swap (AGM out, lithium in) with no changes to any other hardware. I kept the original VW split charger and mains/EHU charger and did not install a DC-DC charger. Titan did the install for me but having seen it done, if you are confident with 12v electrics, a DIY install would be straightforward. The BMS on the Titan batteries has been designed so that they can be dropped in in place of AGM batteries with no other changes. I had this done in mid June and have been in the van for a total of 4 weeks since then, without using EHU for all but one of those nights (I do also have 300W of solar on the roof). The Max Charge function works a treat. I can’t fault the new batteries.

The CCU screen does not display the correct “Time Remaining” (not that it ever really did) but does display the correct voltage and current and, as you have said, the Titan batteries link with an app which does display the correct information (and a lot more than is shown on the CCU screen besides).

I’d love to say that I found these batteries and Titan myself but I was put onto them by another member here, who had done an identical install, through one of his posts. He was very knowledgeable and generous with his time answering my questions and Chris at Titan was also very helpful providing information before I decided to take the plunge. I had been looking at various systems and batteries (CarElectric.de/Super B Epsilon, Califaktur/Saftkiste, bespoke installs, etc.) and the Titan solution, to me, was the best: Titan are UK based, the batteries are (marginally) smaller than the factory fitted AGM batteries (in the Ocean in any case, not sure about the Beach), the battery casing is compatible with the battery fixing/hold down clips already installed, it’s a drop-in installation, the capacity is massive and they are the cheapest (in the round).

I am planning to write up the solution I went with/my experience in a separate post but that is on the long finger until the weather forces me out of the van!

Very interesting!
Just to be clear: you have a written confirmation of Titan that their BMS can cope with the standard split-relay of VW without having to install a DC-DC charger, and it will not impact the performance of the battery?
Because this would really be a big difference financially in taking this step, knowing the price of a Victron Orion XS...

 

[arklife]

Evening Kemper-van,

I don't have anything in writing from them re my specific install but I did discuss it with Titan before I pushed the button on it and they were comfortable with it. Their batteries have been installed with split charge relays in other Cali's and I know of at least one other member who has done the same.

There is quite a lot of information on Titan's website, including about using their batteries with split charge relays. If you need more than that, it is worth reaching out to Chris at Titan for a chat.

Cheers.

 

[wildslammer22]

You can use the Max Charge switch on the T6.1 or switch on headlights or heated seats, all of which switch off the Smart Alternator 80% limit and goes to 100%, charging all batteries to 100%.

That’s interesting. I was always told by auto electricians that LIFEPO4 batteries can pull massive voltages that a split charge relay can’t regulate and this risks damaging the battery and or the alternator. It sounds like in the BMS is providing a layer of protection in the case of the Titan batteries, they are a respected brand so no reason to doubt it but I’m naturally sceptical.

 

[wildslammer22]

Evening Kemper-van,

I don't have anything in writing from them re my specific install but I did discuss it with Titan before I pushed the button on it and they were comfortable with it. Their batteries have been installed with split charge relays in other Cali's and I know of at least one other member who has done the same.

There is quite a lot of information on Titan's website, including about using their batteries with split charge relays. If you need more than that, it is worth reaching out to Chris at Titan for a chat.

Cheers.

Evening Kemper-van,

I don't have anything in writing from them re my specific install but I did discuss it with Titan before I pushed the button on it and they were comfortable with it. Their batteries have been installed with split charge relays in other Cali's and I know of at least one other member who has done the same.

There is quite a lot of information on Titan's website, including about using their batteries with split charge relays. If you need more than that, it is worth reaching out to Chris at Titan for a chat.

Cheers.

Their website does recommend a DC-DC charger but says a split relay can be used but isn’t optimal.

From their website -

“A standard split-charge relay does work, and many vans already have one, but it is not the most reliable way to charge lithium and some relays cause a backfeed that quietly skims around the top 15% off your usable capacity. Feeding straight off the alternator with no relay and no DC-DC is not something we recommend”

 

[Kemper-van]

Their website does recommend a DC-DC charger but says a split relay can’t be used but isn’t optimal.

From their website -

“A standard split-charge relay does work, and many vans already have one, but it is not the most reliable way to charge lithium and some relays cause a backfeed that quietly skims around the top 15% off your usable capacity. Feeding straight off the alternator with no relay and no DC-DC is not something we recommend”

Indeed, i went through the website as well and what you quote above is why I was asking the question if they approved using it without DC-DC charger installed. The website says it’s OK, but at the same time doesn’t really recommend it but also doesn’t say it cannot be done.

@arklife please keep us informed how you get along and how it keeps working. Interested to hear your real-life experience on this!

 

[wildslammer22]

Indeed, i went through the website as well and what you quote above is why I was asking the question if they approved using it without DC-DC charger installed. The website says it’s OK, but at the same time doesn’t really recommend it but also doesn’t say it cannot be done.

@arklife please keep us informed how you get along and how it keeps working. Interested to hear your real-life experience on this!

My interpretation of this is that they have an advanced BMS which will protect the battery and alternator if using the split charge but you won’t get a full charge from driving. With 300w of solar the MPPT should keep the battery(s) fully charged in Summer and there’s always EHU option too so in the real world it may not matter not having a DC-DC. In reality the LIFEPO4 option will still provide significantly more useable power even if only operating at 85% efficiency. If you camp off grid in the winter (which I do) the split charge option it’s sub optimal.

TLDR Titan looks like a good option!

 

[Kemper-van]

I was looking at the charger compatibility list and for VW Campers it states the following:

Vehicle	Charger	Voltage	Compatibility	Notes
VW Transporter (campervan)	Durite 0-727-33 voltage sensitive relay VSR	Variable with alternator output	Not recommended	Not ideal. TITAN®'s higher resting voltage can keep the VSR latched open, causing a ~30W draw from the leisure battery back into the starter. Still ok to use, so long as user is aware of this discharge. Replace with a DC-DC charger for modern vehicles.

Just wondering what this 30W draw from leisure back into starter battery would represent on longer trips. (5 to 6h drive time).
I regularly use the max charge during longer trips, or try to connect EHU once a month.
I also read that it is not recommended to keep the Lithium battery at 100% for a long time if no consumption is happening and it should be kept more around 80%, so a 30w draw into the starter during normal driving (without camping) should not be problematic at all.

I will probably chew on this a bit longer before I take the plunge. I suffer from "analysis paralysis" sometimes, you know.

 

[Betsycalifornia]

I was looking at the charger compatibility list and for VW Campers it states the following:

Vehicle	Charger	Voltage	Compatibility	Notes
VW Transporter (campervan)	Durite 0-727-33 voltage sensitive relay VSR	Variable with alternator output	Not recommended	Not ideal. TITAN®'s higher resting voltage can keep the VSR latched open, causing a ~30W draw from the leisure battery back into the starter. Still ok to use, so long as user is aware of this discharge. Replace with a DC-DC charger for modern vehicles.

Just wondering what this 30W draw from leisure back into starter battery would represent on longer trips. (5 to 6h drive time).
I regularly use the max charge during longer trips, or try to connect EHU once a month.
I also read that it is not recommended to keep the Lithium battery at 100% for a long time if no consumption is happening and it should be kept more around 80%, so a 30w draw into the starter during normal driving (without camping) should not be problematic at all.

I will probably chew on this a bit longer before I take the plunge. I suffer from "analysis paralysis" sometimes, you know.

That Durite, I believe, refers to an aftermarket/ conversion campervan. Mine does not use a Durite charger that I can tell, or that number, mine is 2DO 951 253B and definitely does not have any draw to the starter battery when stationary and fully charged, I.e. when the batteries are at resting voltage. Wish it did, might keep the starter battery charged on my drive. I’m of the belief the 2DO 951 253B is made by Bosch for VW.

 

[Kemper-van]

That Durite, I believe, refers to an aftermarket/ conversion campervan. Mine does not use a Durite charger that I can tell, or that number, mine is 2DO 951 253B and definitely does not have any draw to the starter battery when stationary, I.e. when the batteries are at resting voltage. Wish it did, might keep the starter battery charged on my drive. I’m of the belief the 2DO 951 253B is made by Bosch for VW.

Good to know, thx!!

 

[Betsycalifornia]

Very interesting!
Just to be clear: you have a written confirmation of Titan that their BMS can cope with the standard split-relay of VW without having to install a DC-DC charger, and it will not impact the performance of the battery?
Because this would really be a big difference financially in taking this step, knowing the price of a Victron Orion XS...

Titan warranty the battery using the standard VW California configuration, to me that’s the equivalent of written confirmation.

 

[mrkjd]

So its possible to just replace the 2 leisure batteries with drop in lithium and gain circa 100Wh (251 vs 2x 75Ah trad batteries)? What Ah does a Jackery or Ecoflow that fits besides the seats give? Approx how much are the 2 lithium batteries? If we get 3 days from the conventional set up off grid then it sounds like the lithium swap would give circa 6-7 days so as long as you move then and recharge there's no need for solar either?

 

[wildslammer22]

So its possible to just replace the 2 leisure batteries with drop in lithium and gain circa 100Wh (251 vs 2x 75Ah trad batteries)? What Ah does a Jackery or Ecoflow that fits besides the seats give? Approx how much are the 2 lithium batteries? If we get 3 days from the conventional set up off grid then it sounds like the lithium swap would give circa 6-7 days so as long as you move then and recharge there's no need for solar either?

The real world gain is even greater as you can safely discharge the Titan batteries to empty (not recommended) vs the AGM only offer 50% of their total capacity before you risk damaging the cells. Assuming you want to continue using your van as is ie the fridge, heater lights etc a Jackery/Ecoflow isn’t really a like for like alternative to upgrading the onboard batteries. It makes more sense if you want to use supplementary equipment such electric kettles, air fryers etc vs using the gas hob or have a need for hairdryers, e-bike charging etc.

You are correct that if you move regularly you can replenish the batteries whilst driving, a DC-DC charger will do that more efficiently and faster than the split charge relay on Lifepo4 batteries. The Victron Orion DC-DC can charge at up to 50 amps, will fit under the seat with the battery and is a worthwhile upgrade IMO.

 

[Betsycalifornia]

The real world gain is even greater as you can safely discharge the Titan batteries to empty (not recommended) vs the AGM only offer 50% of their total capacity before you risk damaging the cells. Assuming you want to continue using your van as is ie the fridge, heater lights etc a Jackery/Ecoflow isn’t really a like for like alternative to upgrading the onboard batteries. It makes more sense if you want to use supplementary equipment such electric kettles, air fryers etc vs using the gas hob or have a need for hairdryers, e-bike charging etc.

You are correct that if you move regularly you can replenish the batteries whilst driving, a DC-DC charger will do that more efficiently and faster than the split charge relay on Lifepo4 batteries. The Victron Orion DC-DC can charge at up to 50 amps, will fit under the seat with the battery and is a worthwhile upgrade IMO.

I’d agree with most of that. There’s a tiny error. “Faster than the split charge relay” the split charge relay can charge at around 150 amps.

 

[wildslammer22]

I’d agree with most of that. There’s a tiny error. “Faster than the split charge relay” the split charge relay can charge at around 150 amps.

View attachment 150763

Fair point! I still think a DC-DC is more efficient and will perform better in real world on nearly all lifepo4 batteries, Titan may be a bit of an outlier with their BMS. I do wish they were available when I did my upgrade, primarily for the case size which would have made for an easier install and their app for monitoring is much better than what I have available. I went down a rabbit hole trying to make a smart shunt work but with the DC-DC connected to the front battery and an MPPT to the rear I was defeated!

 

[Betsycalifornia]

Fair point! I still think a DC-DC is more efficient and will perform better in real world on nearly all lifepo4 batteries, Titan may be a bit of an outlier with their BMS. I do wish they were available when I did my upgrade, primarily for the case size which would have made for an easier install and their app for monitoring is much better than what I have available. I went down a rabbit hole trying to make a smart shunt work but with the DC-DC connected to the front battery and an MPPT to the rear I was defeated!

Fair point! I still think a DC-DC is more efficient and will perform better in real world on nearly all lifepo4 batteries, Titan may be a bit of an outlier with their BMS. I do wish they were available when I did my upgrade, primarily for the case size which would have made for an easier install and their app for monitoring is much better than what I have available. I went down a rabbit hole trying to make a smart shunt work but with the DC-DC connected to the front battery and an MPPT to the rear

No argument from me. You’ve done a Stirling job. My house is mainly Victron so I get the pain.
The Titan app amazes me. Managed to connect the solar to the app and just waiting for the keys to allow the app to communicate with an EcoFlow and its DC charger.

 

[wildslammer22]

No argument from me. You’ve done a Stirling job. My house is mainly Victron so I get the pain.
The Titan app amazes me. Managed to connect the solar to the app and just waiting for the keys to allow the app to communicate with an EcoFlow and its DC charger.

View attachment 150788

I have multiple Ruuvi tags in the van and it seems the Titan app will connect to these too. It almost replicates a Cerbo GX - I have battery envy although it’s somewhat mitigated by the fact that my (inferior) units were a lot cheaper!

 

[arklife]

I was looking at the charger compatibility list and for VW Campers it states the following:

Vehicle	Charger	Voltage	Compatibility	Notes
VW Transporter (campervan)	Durite 0-727-33 voltage sensitive relay VSR	Variable with alternator output	Not recommended	Not ideal. TITAN®'s higher resting voltage can keep the VSR latched open, causing a ~30W draw from the leisure battery back into the starter. Still ok to use, so long as user is aware of this discharge. Replace with a DC-DC charger for modern vehicles.

Just wondering what this 30W draw from leisure back into starter battery would represent on longer trips. (5 to 6h drive time).
I regularly use the max charge during longer trips, or try to connect EHU once a month.
I also read that it is not recommended to keep the Lithium battery at 100% for a long time if no consumption is happening and it should be kept more around 80%, so a 30w draw into the starter during normal driving (without camping) should not be problematic at all.

I will probably chew on this a bit longer before I take the plunge. I suffer from "analysis paralysis" sometimes, you know.

Analysis paralysis - not heard that one before - I like it! I am a fellow sufferer.

I also haven't noticed the 30W draw from the leisure back to the starter battery.

I specifically wanted to keep the split charge relay because I have the Dometic Dual Battery MPPT for my solar which charges the leisure batteries and also trickle charges the starter battery, if/when it needs topping up. If I installed a DC/DC charger, I would have had to run a cable from the MPPT directly to the starter battery (rather than to the positive from the starter battery which is connected to the split charge relay), and I didn't want to do that. Unfortunately, I can't connect the Dometic MPPT to the Titan app (as @Betsycalifornia has managed to do with his MPPT) but hopefully this is functionality that Titan will add to their app in the future.

I'm just back from another two weeks away in the van and all is still well with the batteries.