Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[bigmac77]

Interesting reading.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/07/14/everything-you-need-to-know-about-theresa-may-s-

 

[DavidofHook]

That the definition is very broad.

If, as you say, "a definition [is] unlike the first", two definitions are unlike each other, thus the definition is very broad.

Quod erat demonstrandum

No, no,
Naughty boy, you are changing my post again. You inserted a word in brackets and I did not say that did I?
You provided only ONE definition which was the second one.

Any way, to move on, a question for you:
do you consider that the definition you eventually provided, from MacPherson, is reasonable, fair and workable? And why?

 

[Amarillo]

No, no,
Naughty boy, you are changing my post again. You inserted a word in brackets and I did not say that did I?

There is nothing untoward in what I did. It is standard practice to use square brackets when inserting words within a quote.

You provided only ONE definition which was the second one.

There have now been three definitions in this thread:
1. Racism is the belief that some races are better than others
2. Racism is discrimination which disadvantages minority ethnic people
3. Racism is where there has been a perception of racism

To simplify, racism can be a belief held, actions or a perception.

Any way, to move on, a question for you:
do you consider that the definition you eventually provided, from MacPherson, is reasonable, fair and workable? And why?

I see no reason why employers, schools, the police or any other institution should not investigate any complaint of racism as a racist incident.

 

[DavidofHook]

There is nothing untoward in what I did. It is standard practice to use square brackets when inserting words within a quote.



There have now been three definitions in this thread:
1. Racism is the belief that some races are better than others
2. Racism is discrimination which disadvantages minority ethnic people
3. Racism is where there has been a perception of racism

To simplify, racism can be a belief held, actions or a perception.



I see no reason why employers, schools, the police or any other institution should not investigate any complaint of racism as a racist incident.

Oh dear me, you are struggling now aren't you.
1 You changed the meaning of my thread by adding the word 'is' in brackets which is misleading
2 You then further mislead by quoting definitions in the THREAD when we were talking about the definition and misleading previous statements made by YOU. And then:
3 You answer a question that I did not ask by referring to investigations, when I asked if you thought that the definition by MacPherson was fair and reasonable and workable..
However, the sun is shining here in Nevers, the cathedral bell is tolling and we are going to have a walk around the old city before lunch.

 

[Amarillo]

1 You changed the meaning of my thread by adding the word 'is' in brackets which is misleading

You might just have a valid point had I omitted the parenthesis: I didn't so you don't.

2 You then further mislead by quoting definitions in the THREAD when we were talking about the definition and misleading previous statements made by YOU. And then:

None of the definitions are mine. I responded to the first by quoting two others, and thereby demonstrating how broad the definition of racism has become.

3 You answer a question that I did not ask by referring to investigations, when I asked if you thought that the definition by MacPherson was fair and reasonable and workable.

I answered the question in the context of how I understand the definition was intended by the report.

If my understanding of the report is flawed, correct me if you wish. But I stand by my answer unless you are able to show a substantive reason why I might be wrong.

 

[DavidofHook]

You might just have a valid point had I omitted the parenthesis: I didn't so you don't.



None of the definitions are mine. I responded to the first by quoting two others, and thereby demonstrating how broad the definition of racism has become.



I answered the question in the context of how I understand the definition was intended by the report.

If my understanding of the report is flawed, correct me if you wish. But I stand by my answer unless you are able to show a substantive reason why I might be wrong.

I wasn't asking about the report, I was asking what you felt. Sadly you seem to have overlooked that

 

[Amarillo]

I was asking what you felt. Sadly you seem to have overlooked that

I see no reason why employers, schools, the police or any other institution should not investigate any complaint of racism as a racist incident.

OK - I will re-phrase:

I feel there is no reason why employers, schools, the police or any other institution should not investigate any complaint of racism as a racist incident.

I think that you will find the essence of what I have said is the same in both statements, but at least you should be happy now.

 

[DavidofHook]

I can only infer from

I see no reason why employers, schools, the police or any other institution should not investigate any complaint of racism as a racist incident.

OK - I will re-phrase:

I feel there is no reason why employers, schools, the police or any other institution should not investigate any complaint of racism as a racist incident.

I think that you will find the essence of what I have said is the same in both statements, but at least you should be happy now.

I wanted to undertsand your own view but I can only assume from your somewhat bureaucratic response that you feel that the definition provided by MacPherson is a fair and reasonable one for all.

 

[Amarillo]

I wanted to undertsand your own view but I can only assume from your somewhat bureaucratic response that you feel that the definition provided by MacPherson is a fair and reasonable one for all.

Within the context of the report, as I have already indicated, yes.

More generally, the definition of the term racist now covers a very wide spectrum and can include beliefs, actions and perceptions by a victim or third party.

I hope this now draws a line under your somewhat tedious lines of interrogation.

 

[WelshGas]

I hope this now draws a line under your somewhat tedious lines of interrogation.

Pot calling kettle - some other alternative colour.

 

[Keith Smith]

Within the context of the report, as I have already indicated, yes.

More generally, the definition of the term racist now covers a very wide spectrum and can include beliefs, actions and perceptions by a victim or third party.

I hope this now draws a line under your somewhat tedious lines of interrogation.

I still think that your definition of racism is incorrect, surely if someone percieves a non racist incident to be a racist incident that does not make it a racist incident.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I still think that your definition of racism is incorrect, surely if someone percieves a non racist incident to be a racist incident that does not make it a racist incident.

Well Keith I'd say that depends whether you are considering racism (or any other -ism) as a moral issue, or a legal one, or a matter for institutional policy in an organisation.

The trouble seems to be that various posters in this thread have trotted out various definitions that have been attempted for institutional purposes (eg related to the police), or legally (for the purposes of defining certain 'hate crimes'). But they are different contexts and one definition won't fit all, and anyway all such definitions are subjective.

On a forum about campervans though, I'd have thought that the starting point for what language we use, and how we address each other ought to be the principle of common good manners. If someone gives me a reason to think they are (eg) racist, well then shame on them. But if I then use that as an excuse to set out to publicly humiliate them, shame on me. No??

 

[DavidofHook]

Within the context of the report, as I have already indicated, yes.

More generally, the definition of the term racist now covers a very wide spectrum and can include beliefs, actions and perceptions by a victim or third party.

I hope this now draws a line under your somewhat tedious lines of interrogation.

If you think that this is tedious then you should see it from my end! This is not an interrogation I can assure you, just a gentle line of questioning to establish your own view which so far you have successfully avoided in giving.

My interest is in whether YOU think that the wider spectrum of,the term is fair and reasonable to all concerned, but with an answer not hedged about with vague and general words like" in the context of the report" .
So do you CF believe that the definition as laid down by MacPherson, that "if a person believes that racism has occurred then it is indeed racism" is fair and reasonable under all circumstances? (I paraphrase)

Don't go to too much trouble, a YES or NO will suffice.

At Chartres tonight 30C at 9pm, better than last time when it was pouring with rain.!

 

[Amarillo]

I still think that your definition of racism is incorrect, surely if someone percieves a non racist incident to be a racist incident that does not make it a racist incident.

It is not my definition. It is a definition in the Macpherson report.

 

[Amarillo]

If you think that this is tedious then you should see it from my end! This is not an interrogation I can assure you, just a gentle line of questioning to establish your own view which so far you have successfully avoided in giving.

I think that I have been totally clear in what I have said, and am somewhat alarmed that you feel that I have been less than clear.
1. The term racist now covers a very wide spectrum.
2. The term racist can mean different things when used in different contexts

For the sake of ending this line of enquiry, I refuse to answer your somewhat disingenuous strawman question where you incorrectly "paraphrase" Macpherson's definition.

 

[WelshGas]

I think that I have been totally clear in what I have said, and am somewhat alarmed that you feel that I have been less than clear.
1. The term racist now covers a very wide spectrum.
2. The term racist can mean different things when used in different contexts

For the sake of ending this line of enquiry, I refuse to answer your somewhat disingenuous strawman question where you incorrectly "paraphrase" Macpherson's definition.

Probably cannot spell Yes or No.
All you've been asked is for YOUR personal opinion. Not someone else's opinion but yours. Very easy to keep quoting someone else's opinion, which you seem very fond of doing but obviously much more difficult, in your case, to give your own personal opinion on anything, it seems.

 

[Velma's Dad]

For anyone who's just happened upon this tread, and who's trying to make any sense at all of the last few pages, I'll do my best to summarise, although I just know that's the worst idea I've had today:

1. Poster A called Poster B a racist (for something that happened on a different thread).
2. Poster B then cited a definition of racism, although it's unclear if he was offering that as a defence against the accusation against him and if so how.
3. Posters C and D held, over several pages and for reasons best known to themselves, a rally of posts about Poster C's opinions on the proposed definitions of racism in the Macpherson report (into the Stephen Lawrence case).
4. Yet another poster, E, posed the general question of whether it would therefore still be racist if the 'perpetrator' didn't intend their actions to be racist.

And 5 (in this post)... I will observe that the Macpherson recommendations were intended to apply to institutional policymakers (police, local government etc), not as a prescription for individual morality. So, in light of the original quarrel between posters A and B, into which it seems fairly unlikely that any public institution is going to take an interest although you never know I suppose, there seems little sense in debating what Poster C did or didn't mean when citing or paraphrasing this or that part of Macpherson. Particularly as Posters C and D have both said they're now finding it tedious.

But thinking about Elle Macpherson's g-string did make me happy for a while.

 

[Keith Smith]

If I make the not too wild assumption that I am indeed Poster E, I have to take issue with you regarding your interpretation of the interpretation I made in trying to acertain the interpretation of the post of either Poster A or B.

 

[T6 CFO]

I've been following it which means:-

1. I really should listen to my wife, well at least on the issue of being addicted to the Cali board.

2. I should not hold my breath whilst waiting for C to answer D.

3. In fact I should not hold my breath waiting for an opinion on any issue from C .

4. I should congratulate myself for staying out of the debate between C and D as it shows to some extent I am listening to my wife.

5. I should not show my wife answer 4 as she might start thinking that I do listen to her occasionally by taking her sage advice.

6. I should thank C for the insight he has given me into the deep dark thoughts of the deluded.




Mike

 

[Amarillo]

All you've been asked is for YOUR personal opinion. Not someone else's opinion but yours. Very easy to keep quoting someone else's opinion, which you seem very fond of doing but obviously much more difficult, in your case, to give your own personal opinion on anything, it seems.

And here is my opinion: the so called "paraphrased" definition by Macpherson of the term "racism" is not a paraphrased definition at all, but a made up definition offered for comment as a strawman argument.

Compare:

Exhibit A - Macpherson's definition

A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.
Context - The Macpherson Report
​

Exhibit B - DavidofHook's "paraphrase" of Exhibit A

if a person believes that racism has occurred then it is indeed racism
Context - strawman argument​

 

[525107]

Sad I really think you all need to get out more and give the 'keyboard jockeying' a wee rest


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DavidofHook]

And here is my opinion: the so called "paraphrased" definition by Macpherson of the term "racism" is not a paraphrased definition at all, but a made up definition offered for comment as a strawman argument.

Compare:

Exhibit A - Macpherson's definition

A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person.
Context - The Macpherson Report
​

Exhibit B - DavidofHook's "paraphrase" of Exhibit A

if a person believes that racism has occurred then it is indeed racism
Context - strawman argument​

Clearly you have no opinion on this so I cannot be bothered to pursue it further.

I am going to follow the advice of some of the more recent posts, get back to the Cali, and maybe return to the more technical side of the forum, much more satisfying.

I think that I am poster D by the way!

For those going to France the meteo was talking about 36 to 39C today in this area. And we are going home

 

[GrannyJen]

Clearly you have no opinion on this so I cannot be bothered to pursue it further.

I am going to follow the advice of some of the more recent posts, get back to the Cali, and maybe return to the more technical side of the forum, much more satisfying.

I think that I am poster D by the way!

For those going to France the meteo was talking about 36 to 39C today in this area. And we are going home

Don't worry.

I'm going to Chertsey later and they are forecasting 33C

 

[DavidofHook]

Don't worry.

I'm going to Chertsey later and they are forecasting 33C

Thanks Jen,
Cheered me up, what about tomorrow when we get the ferry?

Are you going to the club site at Chertsey?...... Or just shopping?

 

[GrannyJen]

Thanks Jen,
Cheered me up, what about tomorrow when we get the ferry?

Are you going to the club site at Chertsey?...... Or just shopping?

Yes, the club site.

The next five days, including today, is gorgeous BBQ weather when I am doing anything but BBQ'ing

T - today. Travelling. 33C

W. Oxford, picking a drone up and flying it to the intense amusement of all onlookers and probably the intense annoyance of local Air traffic control. 29C

Th. Chertsey . shopping in London 26C

Fr. Chertsey . Queens Square, Neurological Hospital. 23C

Sat. Chertsey ... then Heathrow picking Son up ... then home just in time to miss the BBQ .... 23C


In other words, the Best BBQ weather since 2014 and I'm "busy"

Oh, raining Sunday.