Smart Alternator - Charging Voltage / Driving Behaviour

RoamingHoming

RoamingHoming

Messages
19
Location
Finland
Vehicle
Grand California 600
Hi all,
Does anyone track the battery voltage via OBD when driving? When driving (even for 5+ hours) I'm getting a consistent 14.6 / 14.7 voltage to the battery from the alternator, and I would expect that this should drop to 13.4ish when the battery monitors register sufficient charge. Grateful for thoughts on whether this is normal or worth investigating.

For context, it's been fairly cold (-10 and below) and so equipment (diesel heater, lights, etc) have been on and obviously draw power. So that may explain it - and also my mind may be playing tricks due to recently fitting a new starter battery and my installing a leisure battery busbar. It seems the van is thirsty on fuel than usual so wondering if I'm overworking my alternator and suffering alternator drag because of it.

Cheers!

IMG_F9735008-0A31-4AA6-928E-14C64D9FA8E2.JPEG
 
And another one
Thank you for these, kiitos! It does look like you're alternator is lowering the voltage periodically, which mine does not seem to be doing.

The graph is useful - how are you measuring these?
 
Couple of points.
The smart alternator not only change voltage but also current.
Example. When you drive uphill it charges 0A or even discharges the battery. But when you go downhill not using gas it might charge over 40A .

When you replace the starter battery it is recommend to replace also the leisure battery ( I have heard, not verified )
Also you have to re code the battery so the GC can relearn the charging.

That's funny when you say that GC is thirsty on fuel than usual .
I noticed the same after last maintenance. It uses about 1 l/100km more.
And of course VW said they did not do any changes.
 
Couple of points.
The smart alternator not only change voltage but also current.
Example. When you drive uphill it charges 0A or even discharges the battery. But when you go downhill not using gas it might charge over 40A .

When you replace the starter battery it is recommend to replace also the leisure battery ( I have heard, not verified )
Also you have to re code the battery so the GC can relearn the charging.

That's funny when you say that GC is thirsty on fuel than usual .
I noticed the same after last maintenance. It uses about 1 l/100km more.
And of course VW said they did not do any changes.
Thanks Reima, this is useful info to consider, especially regarding the amperage. In a very nonscientific way, it seems to me that I am experience more drag from the alternator than before the battery change, and this may be because I am over a certain current draw on the leisure battery. (I am rooting all additional electronics to the leisure battery, whereas before this was split with the starter). It's clear I need to do more testing to see if the alternator behaviour changes.

Re "recommended to replace the leisure battery when replacing the starter" - I've not heard this before. It would make it quite an expensive maintenance!

Below my charge chart for information/comparison with yours:

IMG_0755.PNG
 
My alternator definitely changes input voltage up and down in response to the state of charge on the leisure battery. I don’t have a chart but if I set off in a morning having fully charged my leisure battery from the Ecoflow, the Ecoflow struggles to charge.
IMG_5002.jpeg
I think this is the unit that determines this process. This may be faulty or bypassed on your system?
 
Thanks Phil, yes, I've been careful not to bypass these but it might be worth checking their output. I wonder if I bit the bullet and look into getting VDCS
 
Smart battery charging on the GC is complex, very complex!

The engine has a smart alternator that like all modern vehicles, attempts to minimise fuel consumption by "pulse" charging. Basically it tries to only load the alternate when you are decellerating, ie it recovers energy from the Kinetic energy in your vehicle at speed.

note the use of the word "attempts" because this ^^^ rule is the most basic rule ie try not to charge unless the vehicle is decelerating.

BUT, there are a HOST of other rules that come into play

1) don't charge if batteries are already charged
2) try to keep all batteries at 80% State of Charge (SoC) to ensure there is always spare capacity in the battery to accept a charge when you do slow down
3) maximise battery life by keeping the voltage within certain limits expecially when the battery is fully or nearly charged (float voltage)
4) make sure there is ALWAYS sufficient battery power to start the engine

And of course, in a GC, we have TWO batteries as standard, linked with a charging relay, controlled by the "J608 Special vehicles" control unit. Both batteries have negative terminal sensors that measure the voltage, current and temperature of each battery, and the system uses those measurements to estimate both the State of Charge and the State of Health (capacity) of each battery. The starter battery is connected with the alternator to the main engine control unit (underbonnet) and the leisure battery is connected to the Special Vehicles control unit under dash.

Added to which, there is an onboard charger, that when the vehicle is plugged to an Electrical Hook up, charges both the batteries, and you may also have a solar panel on the roof and a charge controlled in the back charging the leisure battery as well, depending on how sunny it is!

What this all means in practise is that exactly when your alternator charges, and the instantaneous system voltage of those batteries at any given moment varrys a LOT and is difficult to guess!

Normally, to get a positive current output from the alternator ie an output voltage demand that is HIGHER than the current battery voltage (drives current out of the alternator and into the battery(s) you need at least one of the batteries to have an SoC below 80%. If both batteries are above 80% SoC, no charging is requested (unless you have the "boost charging" button on the dash pressed that increases the idle speed and raises the SoC threshold to around 95%. If batteries are at above 95%, pressing that button does increase idle speed but no additional charging takes place.

Once some charging has occured, charging will be stopped when both batteries raise above 80% SoC (unless boost charging is pressed then it's 95%). If a high current demand (looks to be approx >15A alternator output) is present when the batteries reach there charged thresholds (80 or95%) the system will drop into a medium level where the alternator holds a voltage output level which is sufficient to supply the current demand, but not high enough to drive a large amount of charging current into the batteries, this is around 13v typically)

As the split charge relay is controlled by the logic, normally once the engine is running, both the starting battery and the leisure battery get coupled together by that relay closing, so typically the SoC of each battery converges, ie the higher SoC battery bleeds charge into the lower SoC one, even when the alterator is not charging.



So, that having all been said, you can do a couple of things to prove your alternator system is working (honestly, if you're batteries aren't totally flat, it's almost certainly working!)

1) leave the vehicle parked, at night with the ignition on and with some electrical load on (headlights etc) to discharge the batteries below 80%. Probably 15min with headlights and fans running ought to be enough, if you have heated seats, these can be turned on to draw more current

2) monitoring the voltage of the battery, start the engine and drive off. If SoC is low (approx <60%) charging will commense immediately, even at idle (>14v showing) if it is between 60% and 80% charging should only happen when you drive off and slow down, ie lift off the accelerator in gear using engine braking

3) after driving for a while, normally around 30min, make sure everything is off that can be (lights, heaters, heated seats). You should see the system stop charging, dropping to approx 12.5v


If the voltage stays at over 14v continuously, you have two possibly outcomes

1) the system things your batteries are effectively end of life, ie the State of Health is less than 65% (approx). The system will disable smart charging to try to ensure with these degraded batteries you can still start the engine always

2) there is a fault with the system (or it's been deliberately bypassed by someone) that prevents the system from getting data from either battery smart sensor or from the alternator itself. Wiring faults on the LIN data bus between these devices and the engine controller and/or special vehicles control unit will put the system into the safe fall back state where smart functions are disabled and the alternator simply outputs approx 14v at all times. Some people deliberately disable smart charging by disconnecting parts of the system, normally the battery terminal sensors to force 'dumb'charging!
 
Really informative post - thank you @maxtorque. The charging behaviour you set out makes a lot of sense. The strange behaviour I've been experiencing seems to have kicked in following starter battery change (and possibly the context of fairly cold conditions: -15/-10c).

Temperature is warmer now (+5c) and the system is behaving more normally, so perhaps there is a learning cycle post battery change. Situation now is:
  • float voltages acheived / no longer constant charging at 14.6+v
  • materially increased fuel efficiency / alternator drag has stopped
  • deceleration regen is working, I see the pulse charging behaviours you describe.
  • Start stop system is working
  • Of possible concern: starter voltage drain which doesnt seem to be charged by EHU. I've not had time to test if a material issue as I drive the van most days, however lowest registered charge of 12.3v seems low to me and I would expect the underseat battery charger to kick in to boost the SOC. Leisure battery is charging normally.
Recent charging plot:

IMG_0061.jpg
 
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