New (no Solar) Grand California - Off Grid timescales

[Maidment_Ocean]

Hi - Grand Cali owners, we are going to Camper Jam this year and this will be our first VW festival and wondering how we are likely to go on being off grid for 3 days.

We currently have a California and tend to usually have hook-up or go 1 night off grid no issue. We have a Grand California on order which we should have by Camper Jam but as it is a new one, it will have no solar.

I have a Ecoflow Delta 3 and plan to get the extra battery before then so will arrive with 2KWH of battery (plus the normal leisure battery) and a Renogy external solar 220W panel set to hopefully keep things topped up (weather dependant of course!). Main needs will be fridge, shower, toilet, (hopefully no heating!).

In your experience, do you think this should work for 3 nights, or not?
Thanks for any feedback.

 

[GordonH]

With the panel and the delta you will be for Camper Jam. See you there

 

[Razor Crest]

You will probably need to think about how you will charge your leisure battery using your Ecoflow.

 

[Coachella]

From experience at CamperJam and Busfest in my old T6 self build - running AGM leisure with a Diesel Heater and Fridge - used the heater over night on the Friday and Saturday - finding that on the Sunday morning waking up cold - the diesel heater had switched off (on a red status).
The leisure was only a 96aH battery - so getting to 50% the heater stopped the fridge was still working - USBs were still working also.
With moving now to a bigger camper - Knaus BoxDrive600XL (same as grand cali) - it having the shower room and toilet and truma heater/boiler. There will be a bigger draw on the battery.

I did switch out the battery in the T6 to lithium and it gives effectively double capacity since it stays on voltage till 5-10%. I have also switched out the leisure on my Knaus to a lithium 106aH battery - and i also put in a cable to enable mobile panel on the ground with mppt to charge that battery under the bonnet. (removable). At Bristol Volkfest the whole weekend - didnt drop below 70%. We used heater / boiler, fridge, lights - but no inverter.
So adding to that we also used our portable EcoFlow to have 240 ready for hairdryer and kettle.
So we had everything we wanted / needed without any expensive complicated wiring.

There are many threads on here with people integrating their EcoFlow into their system - but just an alternative view to keep it simple for just the festivals.

 

[Coachella]

Will be at the Dorset Club Meet next month if you want to see., that's if you are going

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

You will probably need to think about how you will charge your leisure battery using your Ecoflow.

TBH, was hoping to just to top up the leisure battery by plugging in to the hookup external socket as needed. I know this is not efficient but not looking to do anything complicated.

 

[Razor Crest]

TBH, was hoping to just to top up the leisure battery by plugging in to the hookup external socket as needed. I know this is not efficient but not looking to do anything complicated.

I have done the same before, but can’t remember how much power it took. I am sure that you will be fine for 3 days, plus you can always start the van and hit the boost button if you get low.

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

I just bought an 800w Ecoflow alternator charger as well as was on special at Amazon, got it for £260.10 which I thought was good value.Should help if I need to run the van for a bit.

 

[KP01]

TBH, was hoping to just to top up the leisure battery by plugging in to the hookup external socket as needed. I know this is not efficient but not looking to do anything complicated.

Don’t plug your power station into the van via the hook-up socket. It’s incredibly dangerous. You risk killing yourself or blowing up the power station and it it will certainly invalidate your warranty and insurance should something go wrong.

A power station is not earthed in the same way as mains power. If a device plugged into the Cali’s power socket suffers a short circuit while your power station is plugged into the EHU, you will be electrocuted if you touch the van’s bodywork.

Type it into whatever AI you have for more info.

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

I understand that risk which is why I would only use to charge leisure battery as required, I.e. no internal van socket use.

 

[KP01]

The risk isn’t just to you. It’s anyone or anything that for whatever reason touches your van when you have a power station connected and there’s a short circuit. Your comment above won’t mean much to anyone injured and won’t defend you from prosecution.

 

[maxtorque]

On the GC, the OE fit on board charger for the 12v starter and Lesiure batteries is fitted under the passenger seat (LH front seat) It actually has a std "kettle plug" as the 240V input in the back off it. eg one of these:



So if you have one of these (or buy one) you can just about, with a bit of a struggle, and sliding the seat fully fowards / backwards, simply unplug the vans internal 240v feed to that charger and plug in your stand alone kettle lead, and plug that leads normal 3prong plug into your power pack and bingo, your vans 12v system is now being charged by your power bank!

Worth noting, that this OBC charger being active is also how the van knows you are normally "plugged in" so it will bing bong at you like a mentalist if you turn on the ignition with this plugged in, because it will think you are still physically plugged into an EHU via an extension cable and it onviously doesn't want you to drive off like that!!!

 

[maxtorque]

Don’t plug your power station into the van via the hook-up socket. It’s incredibly dangerous. You risk killing yourself or blowing up the power station and it it will certainly invalidate your warranty and insurance should something go wrong.

A power station is not earthed in the same way as mains power. If a device plugged into the Cali’s power socket suffers a short circuit while your power station is plugged into the EHU, you will be electrocuted if you touch the van’s bodywork.

Type it into whatever AI you have for more info.

Whilst i totally agree that it's best NOT to plug in external inverters to the EHU socket input, in reality the risk of electrocution is very small for a number of reasons>

1) most portable "power banks" with 240Vac outputs link neutral and earth internally, so the vans chassis is connected to the "earth" ( "earth" is not equipotential with real earth unless the power pack is also implicitly or explicitly grounded) of the power pack, and by reference, the chassis is therefore equipotential to the power pack neutral. A short circuit of a 240 load device in the van to that devices earth (for a metal encased device), or a short to the vans chassis, either via you, or via a wiring short, all mean that current can return via two paths now, on the neutral wire and on the protective earth wire. As the OEM GC 240Vac fuse box includes a residual current device as standard, that leakage current should cause that RCD to trip and interupt the fault current, therefore mitigating the majority of the electrocution risk, as it would in a normal domestic setting

2) The power banks "live" is not referenced to real earth unless the power bank is implicitly (plugged into the real mains earth as it's on charge from the mains) or explicitly (a specific earth wire has been connected) earthed. As such, the likely hood of a high impedance between the vans chassis and real earth is high. This is not guaranteed, but in reality this will provide a significant current limitation to any short circuit.


The "real" reason i don't recommend plugging stuff into the EHU other than a proper EHU feed it two fold

1) the inverter in a portable power bank tends to be a low power device, as such it is current limited. Typical power banks with 2kW output can supply 8A for a brief period of time. This means a short circuit between L & N, a far more probable short that can and does occur regularily in electrical equipment, cannot pull ENOUGH current to promptly cause a normal short circuit device to interupt the supply, ie a thermal fuse or circuit breaker. Normally, when you have the entire "might" of the grid feeding a device, the short circuit current in the case of a L to N chort is so enoumous, being hundreds or even thousands of amps, fuses and circuit breakers blow immediately. With the limited current from a power bank, you can sit in the point of the fusing curve of a protective device where it could take minutes to blow, or even never blow, all the time whilst a 2kW fault is still arcing somewhere, and this is a significant FIRE risk rather than an electrocution risk

2) Not all powerbanks are clearly labelled and set up so one can determine the internal earthing arrangement. Sure, the big brand names tend to get this right, but lots of cheapo stuff doesn't. if you have a floating earth, most people wouldn't know.

So, yes, i agree, lets not all be plugging power banks into EHU sockets, but lets also be realistic about the dangers involved as well

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

On the GC, the OE fit on board charger for the 12v starter and Lesiure batteries is fitted under the passenger seat (LH front seat) It actually has a std "kettle plug" as the 240V input in the back off it. eg one of these:

View attachment 145311

So if you have one of these (or buy one) you can just about, with a bit of a struggle, and sliding the seat fully fowards / backwards, simply unplug the vans internal 240v feed to that charger and plug in your stand alone kettle lead, and plug that leads normal 3prong plug into your power pack and bingo, your vans 12v system is now being charged by your power bank!

Worth noting, that this OBC charger being active is also how the van knows you are normally "plugged in" so it will bing bong at you like a mentalist if you turn on the ignition with this plugged in, because it will think you are still physically plugged into an EHU via an extension cable and it onviously doesn't want you to drive off like that!!!

Thanks for the tip!

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

On the GC, the OE fit on board charger for the 12v starter and Lesiure batteries is fitted under the passenger seat (LH front seat) It actually has a std "kettle plug" as the 240V input in the back off it. eg one of these:

View attachment 145311

So if you have one of these (or buy one) you can just about, with a bit of a struggle, and sliding the seat fully fowards / backwards, simply unplug the vans internal 240v feed to that charger and plug in your stand alone kettle lead, and plug that leads normal 3prong plug into your power pack and bingo, your vans 12v system is now being charged by your power bank!

Worth noting, that this OBC charger being active is also how the van knows you are normally "plugged in" so it will bing bong at you like a mentalist if you turn on the ignition with this plugged in, because it will think you are still physically plugged into an EHU via an extension cable and it onviously doesn't want you to drive off like that!!!

Does doing this resolve the safety concerns?

 

[KP01]

Whilst i totally agree that it's best NOT to plug in external inverters to the EHU socket input, in reality the risk of electrocution is very small for a number of reasons>

1) most portable "power banks" with 240Vac outputs link neutral and earth internally, so the vans chassis is connected to the "earth" ( "earth" is not equipotential with real earth unless the power pack is also implicitly or explicitly grounded) of the power pack, and by reference, the chassis is therefore equipotential to the power pack neutral. A short circuit of a 240 load device in the van to that devices earth (for a metal encased device), or a short to the vans chassis, either via you, or via a wiring short, all mean that current can return via two paths now, on the neutral wire and on the protective earth wire. As the OEM GC 240Vac fuse box includes a residual current device as standard, that leakage current should cause that RCD to trip and interupt the fault current, therefore mitigating the majority of the electrocution risk, as it would in a normal domestic setting

2) The power banks "live" is not referenced to real earth unless the power bank is implicitly (plugged into the real mains earth as it's on charge from the mains) or explicitly (a specific earth wire has been connected) earthed. As such, the likely hood of a high impedance between the vans chassis and real earth is high. This is not guaranteed, but in reality this will provide a significant current limitation to any short circuit.


The "real" reason i don't recommend plugging stuff into the EHU other than a proper EHU feed it two fold

1) the inverter in a portable power bank tends to be a low power device, as such it is current limited. Typical power banks with 2kW output can supply 8A for a brief period of time. This means a short circuit between L & N, a far more probable short that can and does occur regularily in electrical equipment, cannot pull ENOUGH current to promptly cause a normal short circuit device to interupt the supply, ie a thermal fuse or circuit breaker. Normally, when you have the entire "might" of the grid feeding a device, the short circuit current in the case of a L to N chort is so enoumous, being hundreds or even thousands of amps, fuses and circuit breakers blow immediately. With the limited current from a power bank, you can sit in the point of the fusing curve of a protective device where it could take minutes to blow, or even never blow, all the time whilst a 2kW fault is still arcing somewhere, and this is a significant FIRE risk rather than an electrocution risk

2) Not all powerbanks are clearly labelled and set up so one can determine the internal earthing arrangement. Sure, the big brand names tend to get this right, but lots of cheapo stuff doesn't. if you have a floating earth, most people wouldn't know.

So, yes, i agree, lets not all be plugging power banks into EHU sockets, but lets also be realistic about the dangers involved as well

What do you think about this solution?

The power station as a shore power source?

You probably have a power station or a power generator and what could be more obvious than to use these devices to charge the Grand California via them. Just pl

www.grandcali.com

 

[maxtorque]

Does doing this resolve the safety concerns?

massively so. The only thing you are poweing is the onboard charger rather than the whole power network in the van. I'd have abnsolutely no concerns doing this in the UK (see my next post)

 

[maxtorque]

What do you think about this solution?

The power station as a shore power source?

You probably have a power station or a power generator and what could be more obvious than to use these devices to charge the Grand California via them. Just pl

www.grandcali.com

It's important to realise this is country and hardware specific. In the UK our plugs look like this:




Note the large earth pin! Pretty much in the uk, when you plug something in, you earth it as well.. Yes, some devices that are "double insulated" ie have completely non conductive outer covers do not have a functional earth pin on their plugs (they still have an earth pin, usually made out of plastic, because it is needed to open the "flaps" in our sockets

So in the uk, if you have a power bank with mains sockets on it, it will look something like this:




Ie have a UK specification socket with earth pin on it, and in the most cases, unless you are buying a really cheap product, that earth pin will be internally connected to the neutral conductor and hence the output voltage on the live pin will be refferenced to both N and PE

Other countries that use two pin plugs without an explicit earth reference connection that can carry the full fault current without failure are a different matter. In this case i would be much more careful with what i plugged in and where!

It's worth noting that if a power back is completely floating, you can only get a shock by touching both L & N conductors simultaneously. touching L & PE will not give you a shock if L is not referenced to PE! In fact, high safety systems actually use floating supplies precisely because it move the shock risk from a single point risk to a two point risk ie touching a single conductor does not give you a shock, in the same way as touching just the positive terminal of any battery does not give you a shock.

Really, anyone using a portable inverter in their van is doing no different, you still have a non earth referenced supply in either case!

So, in the UK, i have no problem really plugging power banks into the EHU from a shock risk perspective. I don't particularly recommend it, especially for long term or un-attended use for the fire risk reasons i previously mentioned. But as a short term fix, under controlled conditions i certainly have no big issue with it, and have done it myself and will continue to do it.


What you MUST NOT DO, and what is actually and demonstrably lethal is to use a back to back plug jumper cable to plug a power pack into a socket with the aim of feeding power back into the network from that socket. This absolutely is a real high risk scenario as mentioned previously!

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

It's important to realise this is country and hardware specific. In the UK our plugs look like this:

View attachment 145314


Note the large earth pin! Pretty much in the uk, when you plug something in, you earth it as well.. Yes, some devices that are "double insulated" ie have completely non conductive outer covers do not have a functional earth pin on their plugs (they still have an earth pin, usually made out of plastic, because it is needed to open the "flaps" in our sockets

So in the uk, if you have a power bank with mains sockets on it, it will look something like this:

View attachment 145315


Ie have a UK specification socket with earth pin on it, and in the most cases, unless you are buying a really cheap product, that earth pin will be internally connected to the neutral conductor and hence the output voltage on the live pin will be refferenced to both N and PE

Other countries that use two pin plugs without an explicit earth reference connection that can carry the full fault current without failure are a different matter. In this case i would be much more careful with what i plugged in and where!

It's worth noting that if a power back is completely floating, you can only get a shock by touching both L & N conductors simultaneously. touching L & PE will not give you a shock if L is not referenced to PE! In fact, high safety systems actually use floating supplies precisely because it move the shock risk from a single point risk to a two point risk ie touching a single conductor does not give you a shock, in the same way as touching just the positive terminal of any battery does not give you a shock.

Really, anyone using a portable inverter in their van is doing no different, you still have a non earth referenced supply in either case!

So, in the UK, i have no problem really plugging power banks into the EHU from a shock risk perspective. I don't particularly recommend it, especially for long term or un-attended use for the fire risk reasons i previously mentioned. But as a short term fix, under controlled conditions i certainly have no big issue with it, and have done it myself and will continue to do it.


What you MUST NOT DO, and what is actually and demonstrably lethal is to use a back to back plug jumper cable to plug a power pack into a socket with the aim of feeding power back into the network from that socket. This absolutely is a real high risk scenario as mentioned previously!

Thanks for all the useful info, my head is aching…..

 

[maxtorque]

Thanks for all the useful info, my head is aching…..

sorry, it's a complex and very mis-understood situation, and even electricians can not understand it!

As you are in the UK, and therefore are plugging stuff into your portable power pack that will have an earth pin, with the assumption your power pack is something mainstream rather than something you bought cheap of ali-express, then i would personally certainly have no issue using a kettle lead to plug the onboard charger into that power pack if you need to ie if you find your lesiure battery going flat, (which you will in a GC with no solar on the roof...).

 

[Maidment_Ocean]

sorry, it's a complex and very mis-understood situation, and even electricians can not understand it!

As you are in the UK, and therefore are plugging stuff into your portable power pack that will have an earth pin, with the assumption your power pack is something mainstream rather than something you bought cheap of ali-express, then i would personally certainly have no issue using a kettle lead to plug the onboard charger into that power pack if you need to ie if you find your lesiure battery going flat, (which you will in a GC with no solar on the roof...).

Ecoflow Delta 3, so hopefully all good.

 

[maxtorque]

From

https://manuals.ecoflow.com/cn/product/delta-pro-3-portable-power-station?lang=en_US

Looks like this device has a mode to couple the output sockets "earth" pin to the neutral condutor within the device. This is required to allow an external Residual Current Device (RCD) to trip.

Let me try to explain:

Normally (no fault) all current comes out a Live (L) wire, flows through the load (lets say a toaster) and then back through the Neutral (N) wire. No current flows in the Protective Earth (PE) wire, even though it maybe at the same potential as, or physically coupled to, the Neutral wire.

Now lets immagine you are standing on "earth" ie the floor of your van, and you stick a metal knife in the toaster (you wouldn't do that would you... ) and touch the live element inside. Now some of the current could jump out via that knife, through you and into "earth", as long as earth is also connected to N in whatever is supplying the power. This is because your powerbank is generating the Live voltage with respect to N, and if coupled, to PE as well


If you do have a RCD in the circuit, that device would notice that "leakage current" and interupt the L supply, so fast (less than 20/1000 of a second) that you hopefully feel nothing more than a sharp sting. You might swear a bit but you'll mostly be fine.....

Now of course, if you don't have an RDC, then that PE connection is actually more of a hazard to you. If "earth" (the floor of your van) is connected to Neutral, when you stick the knife in and touch Live, you get properly electocuted because there is nothing to turn off the supply. Electricity flows out of Live, through you to "earth" and then back to Neutral. This hurts, a lot!!


So this is why your power bank gives you the option to chose if the "earth" is coupled to Neutral in the device. If you have an external RCD it's better to be coupled so that device can work, but if you don't have an RCD it's generally better to be floating (uncoupled) so there is a much harder (higher resistance) path back so less current flows through you.


Therefore, if you are going to plug the eco-flow directly into the onboard charger, where there is such a low risk of shock to a user (it's really hard to touch a live wire on this device, ie it's not like using a toaster, or drying your hair in the bath lol, for example) you can choose not to use an RCD, and therefore leave the GFCISupport unchecked ie "earth" and N are not conected in the eco-flow


NOTE: i used "earth" in quotes to basically mean any conductor that is only there to carry a fault current, and EARTH to refer to a real earth potential ie the zero volts of the ground all around us. In a van, with rubber tyres and unplugged from an EHU, there is no such thing as EARTH, there is only "earth" as the chassis floats at some unknown potential above the real local ground potential